Ultimate ST thread

[Chuck Miller]

why does it mount the battery cut-off on the fuel door?

This is what I think Baudett....
- I looks like he would have the fuel filler under the hood with it scuba straps.
- The fuel filler door location is convenient and ideal because the door is expendable...
- Another cut off place would be one of the windshield wiper holes, however I see he probably needs both wipers, it looks to me like it's in a long distance rally...

My .02

Cheers

[_gonbau]

My car, some would call it an ST, some a rebuilt production car, was also delivered to MAHAG/Munich, where it was fitted with a body kit, a roll bar and BBS rims, but the engine and transmission were then rebuilt again at Porsche's Plant 1. I even still have the original sticker on the sun visor, which allowed the vehicle to be parked inside the factory area.

The procedure must have been more or less standard at the time. I assume that in the summer/fall of 1972, that Werk1 was already busy with the '73 RS and the RSR's for the spring of 1973 and complete conversions were no longer possible from the side of manpower.

Over time, I noticed that the ST family was quite large... I have a very good definition of the st "groups" of some user that I liked, it was quite extensive and it cited characteristics (I'll look for it)... I understood with the time that there are ST clients named as original ST (the 20 I don't know how many). Then there is ST from the factory (which are included in those 20 I don't know how many)?... when we talk about the 20 points... those are the customer+factory race, right?
What are customer career vehicles? Vehicles that came out as ST from the factory as soon as you "buy" it or race/customer vehicle is any vehicle that is later modified in werks or distributor as ST and engine etc... and in that case... Would it be ST because of that modification? Even if I hadn't run any event?
How has this career-client group been accounted for? How do you know a number? It was mandatory to make "x" cars to be able to run events, right? or am i confused on that

+

"Hello,

we are also considering the build of a 911 ST based on a 1970 chassis.
From our side we plan to follow the FIA regulation in order to get the "PTH" (French racing agreement) to have the car used at the 'Tour de Corse' rally.
this means we need to conform the the FIA appendix K/J and the FIA 3025 homologation making as much as possible a "real" werk clone but also getting the best 'legal' and competitive car.
Since I'm thinking of this build I understood that we mainly can identify 2 type of ST: the pre 72 and the post 72 or the 2.3 and the 2.5L (but it's more complicated than that).
The main reason is to comply from January 1972 with the evolution of the appendix K/J: this says that we must follow the production spirit for exterior body panel, and windows unless 500 cars were made in period:
to sum-up from 1972 you must use front steel fender, front and rear steel bumbers, doors, glass wintows... because no production cars was fitted with plastics ones.

I have identified the following different configuration:

Chassis 911 ST Pre 1972 group 4 (env 840kg):
ELEMENTS: DESCRIPTION
Rear wings: Steel with welded extension up to 1680mm
Front wings: Plastic up to 1680mm (idem 2.8 RSR)
Front bumper: Plastic
Rear bumper: Plastic
Front hood: Plastic
Rear deck lid: Aluminum
Doors : Steel with exterior panel in aluminum
Windshield: Standard
Doors windows: Plexiglass
Rear lateral windows : Plexiglass
Rear window: Plexiglass
Gearbox : 911 5 speed with oil pump and cooling radiator
Engine : 911/20 or 911/22 or 911/21
Brakes : Standards 2.2S (front S aluminum; rear in cast iron
Oil cooling: Standard radiator in the front right wing,
2 radiators in the front wings (L and R similar as the 911R) for cars using injection engine 911/20 et 911/21
Battery box: No change

 
Chassis 911 ST Post 1972 Groupe 4 (env 920kg):
ELEMENTS : DESCRIPTION
Rear wings: Steel with welded extensions up to 1680mm
Front wings: Steel with welded extensions up to 1680mm (idem 2.8 RSR)
Front bumper: Steel with plastic extensions
Rear bumper: 3 parts, steel (extensions ??), central part in aluminum (911S ?)
Front hood: Steel
Rear deck lid: Aluminum
Doors : Steel with exterior panel in aluminum (I need to confirm the aluminum exterior panel because it has probably not been fitted on more than 500 cars…)
Windshield: Standard
Doors windows: Standard
Rear lateral windows : Standard
Rear window: Standard
Gearbox : 915 5 speed with oil pump and cooling radiator
Engine : 911/70 (911/ 71 depend on sources) or 911/73
Brakes : Front and rear 917 calipers
Oil cooling: 2 radiators in the front wings (L and R similar as the 911R)
Battery box: Deleted for cooling purpose

 
911 ST Group 5 (env 790kg - Larrousse):
ELEMENTS: DESCRIPTION
Rear wings: Steel with welded extensions up to 1680mm
Front wings: Plastic up to 1680mm (idem 2.8 RSR)
Front bumper: Plastic
Rear bumper: Plastic
Front hood: Plastic
Rear deck lid: Plastic (like the 911R) (deviation from the 2.3 group 4)
Doors : Plastic idem 911R (deviation from the 2.3 group 4)
Windshield: Standard
Doors windows: Plexiglass
Rear lateral windows : Plexiglass
Rear window: Plexiglass
Gearbox : 915 5 speed with oil pump and cooling radiator (deviation from the 2.3 group 4)
Engine : 911/73 up to Class limit 2500cc
Brakes : Front and rear 917 calipers (deviation from the 2.3 group 4)
Oil cooling: 2 radiators in the front wings (L and R similar as the 911R)
Battery box: Deleted for cooling purpose(deviation from the 2.3 group 4)

 
Engine Pre-72

Type 911/20 (engine end of season 1970) 230hp
ELEMENTS: DESCRIPTION
Fuel system: Injection High Butterfly diam 41.5
Piston diameter: 85mm
crankshaft: 66mm
Engine capacity (real) : 2247Cc
Cylinder head: I46E40 I38E38

Type 911/21 (Engine 1971) 250cv
ELEMENTS: DESCRIPTION
Fuel system: Injection High Butterfly diam 41.5
Piston diameter: 87.5mm
crankshaft : 66mm
Engine capacity (real): 2380Cc
Cylinder head: I46E40 I38E38

Type 911/22 (Engine beginning of 1970 season) 230hp
ELEMENTS DESCRIPTION
Fuel system: Carburateur weber 46IDA
Piston diameter: 85mm
crankshaft : 66mm
Engine capacity (real): 2247Cc
Cylinder head : I46E40 I38E38

 
Engine post 1972:

Type 911/70 (engine 1972) 275 hp
ELEMENTS : DESCRIPTION
Fuel system : Injection High Butterfly diam 41.5
Piston diameter: 86.7mm
crankshaft: 70.4mm
Engine capacity (real): 2492Cc
Cylinder head : I46E40 I41E41

Type 911/73 (Rally engine 1972) 275hp
ELEMENTS: DESCRIPTION
Fuel system: Injection High Butterfly diam 41.5
Piston diameter: 89mm
crankshaft : 66mm
Engine capacity (real): 2464Cc
Cylinder head: I46E40 I41E41

Sorry for the bad presentation and translation issues, I use to make this as a table in French...
If you send me your email address I can send you the FIA 3025.

cheers"
Jeager

https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?120201-911-ST-project

[_gonbau]

This is what I think Baudett....
- I looks like he would have the fuel filler under the hood with it scuba straps.
- The fuel filler door location is convenient and ideal because the door is expendable...
- Another cut off place would be one of the windshield wiper holes, however I see he probably needs both wipers, it looks to me like it's in a long distance rally...

My .02

Cheers

thanks for the words! I'll take a closer look but as always... You can never say never in Porsche business. How many original factory vehicles do you have to mount a cutout in that position?

[niall1]

thanks for the words! I'll take a closer look but as always... You can never say never in Porsche business. How many original factory vehicles do you have to mount a cutout in that position?

I think the 21 factory built 1972 cars are well documented. There were many, many customer built cars and as seems to be the nature of the race on Sunday sell on Monday approach the Werks were very supportive of privateers and made a lucrative business out of selling racing kits and parts long after the base car had left the factory.

The other fact is that most of these cars were raced and subsequently modified and improved by their owners through out their lifetime so 50 years on there's no specifically 'correct spec'. Reading your restoration thread, researching whether your car had a competitive past and the repairs and restoration of metalwork is almost like an archaeological dig! My own car started life in '72 as an 'E' with some sports parts then within a few months the owner had been to the factory and bought a container of parts that brought it up to the Group 4 '72 ST spec (917 brakes etc) you detailed above. A good example of the 'evolution' (that would be unthinkable in current times) was that by the 90's the brakes were swapped out for 964 items as these were more efficient and the 'old' ones had served their purpose..

Just my thoughts.

Regards
Niall

[_gonbau]

I think the 21 factory built 1972 cars are well documented. There were many, many customer built cars and as seems to be the nature of the race on Sunday sell on Monday approach the Werks were very supportive of privateers and made a lucrative business out of selling racing kits and parts long after the base car had left the factory.

The other fact is that most of these cars were raced and subsequently modified and improved by their owners through out their lifetime so 50 years on there's no specifically 'correct spec'. Reading your restoration thread, researching whether your car had a competitive past and the repairs and restoration of metalwork is almost like an archaeological dig! My own car started life in '72 as an 'E' with some sports parts then within a few months the owner had been to the factory and bought a container of parts that brought it up to the Group 4 '72 ST spec (917 brakes etc) you detailed above. A good example of the 'evolution' (that would be unthinkable in current times) was that by the 90's the brakes were swapped out for 964 items as these were more efficient and the 'old' ones had served their purpose..

Just my thoughts.

Regards
Niall

when we talk about the 21 manufactured in the factory... are we talking about vehicles that left the factory for the first time already being ST? Those would be the ones that are correctly documented? I know it's been years to know this kind of thing but sometimes it has given me the impression that some "types" of ST are mixed in that list. Is there a list of the 21 "clarified" VINS here?
Regarding metal work... It doesn't lack any reason... One has "fun" trying to connect ends, looking for holes... digging up rust!! (I think, it is only understandable for who has gone through a similar adventure)
And for me, the vehicle that you say would be a race-client (I'm wrong) and I understand now that it would be a car prepared by Kit later (there are no records of these and it says that there could be "many" ... correct?) .... So... The career-clients are the famous 21 ST? On the other hand! I never thought to find someone from Limerick on this forum! I don't know if you know that I was looking for images of Porsche not long ago in that city... or at least in the archive. On the other hand, I would like to comment on the following regarding the ST Designation in events... I would like to ask why in this 1970 event the Pilot hans-peter ziegler Recorded his vehicle as 911 ST.
Does somebody know anything about this?

https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/re...erfranken-1970

+



about this letter. About ST 9110301138. How do you know that the percentage of 220 LSd was 80%?


https://www.janluehn.com/sites/defau...sh_-_kopie.pdf

Why does the engine of the certificate not match the one shown in this post?https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...38#post1083779

9110301138 S/T Coupe 614083
"The engine number at delivery was # 630 1552."

[911Kraut]

https://youtu.be/IWU7r9swq3Y

Sorry if this is a repost

[johns4949]

Did Chris Wilder ever own 911 230 1687 ?

[_gonbau]

Did Chris Wilder ever own 911 230 1687 ?

this?
I don't know but I'll try to look it up.

"folding" front windows

Why would this vehicle be labeled with that VIN? I don't see the side oil door

http://www.franklincunningham.com/Track_Photos.html
https://www.vintageracer.net/svra-sebring-2019.html



when we talk about what I won in 2018. Is this last vehicle that I show the one that remained 2 in 2018?

https://sportscardigest.com/carmel-c...photo-gallery/

evidently the labeling of the name as a '72 chassis in the first photo is an error. But I would like to see a photo of 1687 in that race/contest.

[_gonbau]

OK thanks to Wolf's work I think it is clear that the Kuberol car (the S) was NOT a customer M491 car from this list but likely to be a kit car built up on car made earlier than the 72MY.

Based on the same reasoning I think that THIS one below for Gunter Schulte for Hulpert racing team at the Norisring is may also be a "kit car" and not a customer M491 car.
Attachment 406289

However this one below from the same race is almost certain to be the Krizella car 0934 looking more like tangerine than the colour in the photos I posted earlier when it is in the USA

Attachment 406291

THIS one below for Jean-Pierre Jabouille at the EC GT race a Paris in April 1972 looks like a real one that I have not been able to identify so far.

Attachment 406290

The fact that PORSCHE is shown as the sponsor is more evidence. This MAY be the one car that went to France according to one of the sources.

These other ones below are also almost certainly "kit cars"
car #293 Hasselbecker racing team
Attachment 406292

car #20 Nirvelles Hans-Peter Joisten
Attachment 406293


Finally I dont think this is one for Kinnunen at the 1972 Arctic rally is a customer M491 car either although it is a definite 72 and entered as a Group 4 car. A clearer picture may help.
Attachment 406294


however given that 16 of the 21 cars were originally identified above and it looks like another 2 have been in the thread so far, the Spanish rally car and the Jean-Paul Jabouille car (so long as it was not one of the ones previously identified) that makes it 18 out of 21.

Hi HughH, in the case of Hasselbecker racing team, what event is the image from?

[91122]

Hello!

I'm looking for help locating 911 ST chassis no. 911 030 1048. My father was the first owner of this car and he raced it for a few years then sold it. His last information about the car was that he sold it to a doctor in Texas, who then sold it to someone in California. But we don't have anymore details to go on than this. VIN searches don't turn up anything. We'd love to located this car as its the 50th anniversary when he won his class at Lime Rock in the car. Any information or to be connected with the current owner would be much appreciated. Sincerely- Cannon