Identifying Original Headlights - Gathering Data

[blue72s]

Does anyone have service bulletin F 16/67 referenced in the document that is referring to a conversion for much older cars?

Maybe Porsche Cars GB can get you a copy from the factory if you ask them?

Incidentally many of the early RHD H4 I see today purporting to still be the car's original factory fitted item dating back to that particular time are very evidently later lamp and lens examples.

I think all 911 H4's have always been the same since when they were introduced in '72. (except the ones made in Czech Rep)

Some people mistakenly refer the original 4487/7045 headlamps as "early" H4's. These are actually R2's.

More info: (no affiliation)
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...gular-h4-bulbs

[Arne]

I think all 911 H4's have always been the same since when they were introduced in '72. (except the ones made in Czech Rep)

The earliest Bosch H4s were said to not have city lights. They weren't needed for the late '72 and '73 cars. The city lights were added for the impact bumper cars.

Or so I understand it. I've not seen a Bosch H4 w/o the small light, but remember being told about them at some point.

[blue72s]

Cliff,

For reference purposes, is there a number etched into the back of this bowl (not the paper sticker), like 1 305 314 ..... ? If so, what is the complete number?

[Cliff]

Nothing.....just a Bosch logo & GERMANY

[911MRP]

Unfortunately later H4s with extra lamp get sold as correct for longhoods ( not talking about Czech stuff). A friend was even sold a modified lamp with parking light removed and somehow patched during lamp renovation for top dollar -- which was naughty assuming it was done purposefully--but buyer was knowlegable so refused/returned it to seller who ought to have known better.

With the H4s being not being used ( permitted?) for NA until advent of the impact bumper I can understand the confusion and why things often not done right if switching to H4 over there. In Europe and markets equipped with h4 from new no excuse. Like many equipment things over Porsche years and regional variants the devil is in detail on H4s and other headlamps.



My friends have long been amused at me taking great note of lights fitted on cars at events and offered for sale.

[Arne]

H4 lights were never fitted by the factory for NA. Even today, they are still technically not allowed as they lack DOT approval. Impact bumper cars in NA got sealed beam lights in "sugar scoop" frames through '86, same as used from '68-73. In '87 US cars changed to a different Bosch light that uses an H5 bulb. It is shaped the same as the H1 & H4 lights, but is totally different in every way. The H5 was used in NA through the end of the 964 models.

[911MRP]

Interesting Arne. If H4 never DOT approved then argument that upgrading to a later NA 911 light spec might not fly in event of problems.

i'm not from USA so in fairness never spec'ed a 911 over there, nor inspected lights of classic 911 at events and physical for sale over there like I often do over here in UK and in continental Europe.

Wow. So from what you say does that mean every 911 running around now on the road fitted with DOT unapproved H4 headlamp in USA (with or without extra sidelights) are all actually illegal?

If I understand that explaination right what are implications for owner /driver of running non approved ( illegal?) lights in NA?

Over here doing that could have consequences ranging from on the spot fine or driving licence endorsements ...if not worse in extremis. Litigation risk in event of an accident at night if lawyers got involved where discovery of fitted part not approved by national road regulations. Insurers here can even invalidate car insurance if deemed appropriate cause where a car is not conforming to road regs.

Are workshop owners and thier insurers happy to fit them if there might be some liability of non approved H4 parts in NA?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue and overstating risks of having DOT nonapproved safety critical items like H4 on classic cars such as early 911 in the USA. Are there formal exemptions etc that permit their use?

The liability cover I have when visiting and for motoring in USA is always a high amount. Often read that parties in USA sue for personal injury in road accident so curious if/why owners and drivers in USA would choose to take such risks for cosmetic or other reason for fitting the H4 --- many 911 photos I see in USA posted here appear to now have what I hear are non approved H4 fitted?

Steve

[RSTarga]

Steve,
Indeed the h4's have always been illegal in the US, when bought the box clearly states "for off-road use only", however It was the first change I did on my 73. The first lights I used were Cibie H4's that used the original sealed beam mounting. I don't know if you have ever driven with the sealed beam type headlight that was standard on US cars until fairly recently, they don't give off much light.
Our state vehicle inspections are minimal, turn signals operate? brake lights go on? both headlights are functional? horn working? No massive leaks? windshield wiper blades not torn? You are good to go...

[NeunElf]

Interesting Arne.

I'm not from USA so in fairness never inspect lights of classic 911 at events and physical for sale over there like I do often do over here in UK and when in continental Europe

Wow. So does that mean every 911 running around on road fitted with DOT unapproved H4 in USA (with or without extra sidelights) are all actually illegal? If I understand that explanation right what are implications for owner /driver of running unapproved ( illegal?) lights in NA?

Over here doing that could have consequences ranging from on the spot fine or driving licence endorsements ...if not worse... Litigation risk in event of an accident at night if lawyers got involved where part not approved by road regulations. Insurers can invalidate car insurance if deemed that have appropriate cause where car not conforming.

Oftentimes read that parties in USA might sue for personal injury so curious if people take those risk for cosmetic or other reason for h4 conversion --- 911 I see in USA posted here quite often appear to now have H4 fitted?

Steve

In 1974 I fitted my then new Series III Land Rover with "illegal" Cibié "Z-beam" 7 inch headlights (not to mention one each Cibié driving and fog light). I passed Pennsylvania and New Hampshire state inspections and everything. A Pennsylvania state trooper once accused the Land Rover of being an ambulance for short people, but nothing on the headlights.

One would occasionally see European cars driving around with obviously non-sealed beam headlights, such as:

From Wikimedia Commons; Author Spurzem - Lothar Spurzem

I've never even heard of someone getting ticketed for European lighting.

Nowadays you can buy H4 bulbs just about anywhere car parts are sold in the USA.

[Arne]

I have fitted "illegal" halogen lights to almost every vehicle I've owned since I first discovered them in 1976. Only exceptions have been the two modern cars (VW and Audi) with factory HID, and a 1964 Land Cruiser FJ40 that I restored to factory spec.

Many states in the USA have no vehicle inspections at all. Oregon is one of those. No one blinks an eye over non-DOT lights anymore.