Ultimate ST thread

[_gonbau]

Can someone explain this photo to me? Is this VIN plate the original one from the vehicle or a replacement? Due to how perfectly aligned it is, I think it's a replacement. Besides, it's 'extracted,' so it wouldn't make sense to extract the original one...



Are these VIN panels sold separately? I thought they came attached to the 'whole' piece. So, it could be that this displayed plate comes from another car, and the original number '1081' was stamped over it. Then, this same plate is the one that was welded onto the chassis, the one that is present nowadays?
It gives me the impression that one of the VINs has the correct font but not the alignment, while in another VIN, the alignment seems to have 'improved,' but the font is incorrect. Are these the same plates?

[HughH]

no the part with the vin stamped in is not sold separately although a lager panel incorporating it (blank though) is

it is always hard to tell form photos BUT the 1 after 30 seems to be lower in the "clean" version than on the painted one. More importantly, to me, the * on the painted one looks a lot bigger than on the clean one which looks about the same size as i have seen on other 72's
finally where the numbers are placed on the painted one looks quite different to on the clean one. the clean one is close to the bottom of the metal part and there appears to be room for another row of numbers the same size above it (like most other LHD cars I have seen)
however the painted one looks to be in the middle of the raised part with no room either side to put another row of numbers

here is an undisputed genuine one as a comparison

[Ernie W]

The font is different on both of the VIN examples, (grey one) post 922, the stars are smaller compared with the height of the numbers, the raised panel has a nice crisp edge. The other VIN (black paint) example, has large stars, almost as tall as the numbers and very close to the numbers, the number one has a foot at the bottom of the stroke. The nine and two are also different with a ball tail. The black painted raised rectangular pad has a softer edge. In Hugh's example (post 923) that VIN is more consistent with the grey example above.

[HughH]

Baudett
this probably answers your question on the vin (it has not been included in some (?) most of the descriptions when this car has been for sale over the past 5 years or so)

"Rugen then sold the car to German collector Chris Stahl and the 1st appearance of the restored and stunning Gulf Orange S/T #1081 took place on November 8th 2003 when Walter Röhrl and Christian Geistdörffer drove it in the international Köln Ahrweiler Rally. In a star-studded field Röhrl won the first 7 special stages with a 57 second lead until he had to abandon due to an accident. When asked for his impressions about the car, Röhrl answered “Impressive !!”.

The repair of the accident - done by specialist Stimming - necessitated the renewal of the front section of the car. Rather than transfer the front trunk stamped VIN-Nr to the new nose, the number was cut from the original nose and kept separate with the car to endorse its identity. Also the original alumium VIN-plate comes with the car. "

I am presuming, knowing who repaired the car, that it was a deliberate decision to make the vin stamping NOT look original and provide the cut out original to go with the car.

[_gonbau]

Interesting, just yesterday I posted those photos in this same thread, two of them. Observing them made me delve deeper into the VIN label since, from my perspective, I didn't see any damages significant enough for someone to decide to replace the VIN plate, especially considering that it was already known to be an S/T at that time... it seems to me like excessive damage to the vehicle rather than a repair. A long time ago, I tried to speak with 'another' of those well-known drivers who piloted this car... I didn't get anything. I also attempted to talk to the tuner a long time ago when I was researching the installation of the rear bumpers... Is it understood that Stimming is someone known for their comments? Did/did they used to work closely with Barth's consultancy and their documents? So... the one that initially existed is the 'unpainted' one. I'm also thinking it's a substitution. Does anyone else notice this? If this were the case, what happened to the original VIN plate? Did the vehicle also suffer another accident and was replaced by 'the first one I show, the unpainted one'? Attempting to get closer to the truth?
With the example of my vehicle, what I observe is that the number 2 (indicative of the year '72) is overmarked. I have noticed this effect on several original '72s, which leads me to think about the first plate, where all the numbering was marked at the same time. According to your explanation, and if I understand it correctly, Huhg, the unpainted plate existed, the car had an accident, and then it was changed for the current plate (shown in the image in black)?

"The present seller, RMD, did add some "latest history" on his website, where you could read that the Jene brothers stated, they would rebuild the car with a new shell end of the '78-season:

"the fourth owner(Jene brothers), however, promises that the veteran 911 will no longer be sold: in the winter break, he gets a new body shell donated. The innards will be transplanted and the rally hunt should continue.." (see attachment)"

Attachment 498157

At that time was the VIN plate changed to the "unpainted" one or was there one prior to this? Has this vehicle had at least 3 or 2 license plates?
+
The unpainted plate appears undamaged. Could the tray supporting the plate (the entire piece) have been damaged? Is that piece structural? Does it provide rigidity? It seems like a spot to reposition with a hammer instead of replacing it entirely, considering all the work involved in welding the piece, the VIN plate, and everything it entails, which seems excessive to me based on the damage present in the vehicle's images. However, I suppose for 'purist' eyes, 'new' is better

[HughH]

Baudette

That other vin plate is not unpainted in never being painted. it has had most of the paint stripped out of it. Stimming's were looking after, repairing and preparing these cars when they were new and racing. They still are one of the few "go to" places if you want ST's restored or maintained in competition condition. I have talked a fair bit about this car with Ingo Stimming in the past, and I am not going to reveal confidences, but i dont believe he would do anything more than was absolutely needed to repair the car so it could be used as it was intended when new.
The front of these cars when hit hard, as this one was, will crumple right up to near the windscreen on the floor there. It is quite likely that that would be enough to distort the whole front part of the shell and especially suspension mounting points and the repair would need that panel replaced, but i am sure that others on the board who do this type of bodywork will have opinions on it

In my experience it would be the opposite of your comment that "Stimming is someone known for their comments"

Also as a firm heavily involved in the Porsche competition scene for almost 60 years there is no doubt that he would know Barth, especially from Barth's time at the factory. however I have never heard any talk about Ingo working "closely" with Barth although no doubt he has very close connections with the old guard at the factory and that would have included Barth. To me those comments of yours seem to imply that Stimming.de did something improper with that repair however from conversations I have had with them about working on the car around that time I believe that your comments are 100% incorrect

[_gonbau]

Little to add, 'comments' meant 'works'... I wanted to ask, 'Is stimming known for its works?' I only recall this particular repaired 's/t' by them, any others? From my point of view, I would say that the VIN plate that arrived at stimming, the one shown here 'unpainted' to differentiate... It doesn't mean it never had paint (clarifying this as it seems to be misunderstood). It's not the original one for the vehicle. If, according to the newspaper article, the Shell was changed in the '80s, was the VIN plate also changed at that time? Has this car had three VIN plates? I still wonder why such a low price at the factory sale for an ST...
+
And to be precise and clear with my opinion, according to "my belief"... in these images, there weren't enough damages to warrant the repairs you mentioned. I understand this is due to my lack of knowledge regarding things like chassis bends, etc. I'll leave it written down; nobody's opinion is necessary for this last part, as Hugh's explanation makes the repair process on this vehicle clear since it's understood that you have knowledge about it. So, I'll keep quiet and learn. It would be interesting to see Ingo around here; it's understood that he's someone with knowledge worthy of being "unveiled" to the general public.

[moito]

1081 (whats left of it)is a total mess.....hence the pricing

[_gonbau]

1081 (whats left of it)is a total mess.....hence the pricing

I indicate/talk about the low price since new. Almost the same price (according to my understanding) as a base 911S from that year. In this post we have seen the invoices several times.
+

I add some interesting questions... When '1081' was used in the race a few years ago, I noticed that the windshield wipers are positioned contrary to the current images for sale. Was it common to change the orientation of these wiper arms? What was the purpose of this operation?
According to historical photos, 1081 had the windshield wiper arms pointing towards the driver.
**""On the other hand, at the rear, I notice the part inside the engine bay where the stickers are placed. Is this part for the year '72?""
https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?115168-NOS-outer-rear-cross-member-90150108720-nla/page2

Having answered this question myself, a new one arises, I think that this rectangle has been talked about here, so I will search for it, from what I understand, it is a correct piece for the year 72.

[_gonbau]

Regarding the S/T and the widening work on the rear bumpers. How was it done before painting? I don't recall seeing any S/T with 'tin/lead' in this area. In graphic images from the factory/max, welds are observed, but how were these dressed to look good with paint in the era when putty didn't exist? If the seams of the flares were filled with tin-lead... Were the bumpers as well?

The cover of the suspension cradle is not evident in this image, but I wonder if it was part of the assembly. As I mentioned earlier, I am also investigating whether that piece was part of the components that were installed on the S/T.