Ultimate ST thread

[niall1]

We love the history of that car Niall........

Thanks Chuck. Me too!

[_gonbau]

The order document does show options M220 M404 M414 M473 & larger tank. The M404, M414 and M473 are not consistent with the 911S since they are standard equipment, and so are not on the delivery document.

I find it logical when I look at 404, but I think the theory shouldn't be like this. Based on what I observe in my vehicle, it has an 85L fuel tank (M424) according to the COA. According to this 1972 list where it's mentioned as "standard" in the S. So, if it were as you say, there is the question of why M424 is listed on my vehicle.

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In the post about my vehicle, it was mentioned that the time between delivery to Hahn and the customer was short, from the 19th to the 25th. Therefore, 4 days. (in my car)In 1081, I noticed that there is also a short period of time between Hahn's invoice to Max and the dates listed in the documentation for vehicle 1081 signed by the customer.Therefore, if Hahn sold the car on the 27th (according to the invoice), by the 29th (according to the documentation), it was already in the possession of the customer, with the vehicle documentation filled out and ready to drive, which would be 2 days between delivery to the dealership and the customer.
In comparison to how the 1081 order form was filled out.

[_gonbau]

M494?
In the second half of the 1960s, Porsche developed a racing version of the 911 with multiple weight reductions, resulting in the 911 R weighing only 800 kilograms. It was too early for mass production of such a reduced-weight 911. Still, the experience gained in its manufacturing was incorporated into a new project: starting in 1969, Porsche offered a racing version of the 911 S. To avoid the costly homologation of a new model, the car still officially carried its usual commercial name. It was called the 911 ST. Lightweight construction was a fundamental aspect of this vehicle. Porsche homologated a combination of the 911 S with a 2.2-liter engine and the reduced interior equipment of the 911 T for FIA Group 3. Plexiglass windows and body parts made of aluminum and fiberglass-reinforced plastic contributed to weight reduction. The car achieved its first successes in January 1970: at the Monte Carlo Rally, three Porsche 911 S 2.2 (ST) cars secured the 1st, 2nd, and 4th positions. During its production period, the 911 S (ST), in various stages of development, participated in events such as the Acropolis Rally (1969), Nürburgring (1970), East African Safari Rally (1971), and endurance races like Le Mans (1972) and Daytona (1973).
From October 1970, Porsche introduced the 911 S (ST) as a "standard sports version" homologated for road use with equipment code M471. With this code, the ST package could be ordered at any dealership as part of the standard 911 lineup. The circuit racing version received the code M491, and the rally version was designated M494.
Porsche continued to develop the project. FIA regulations allowed a 0.1-liter increase in engine displacement over the stock unit. Competition versions received engines with displacements of 2.3 liters (January 1971), 2.4 liters (March 1971), and ultimately, 2.5 liters (September 1971). Starting from January 1970, widened plastic fender flares accommodated wider tires with 7 and 9-inch rims. For the 1972 season, when the FIA prohibited replacing body parts with plastic equivalents, Porsche began producing steel fender extensions in September 1971.
During its production period, the appearance of the 911 S (ST) evolved. However, there were some distinctive features that characterized it: in the "standard sports version," bumper guards, auxiliary headlight supports, moldings, and protective strips on the doors, as well as rubber strips on the bumpers, were omitted. Rubber strips replaced the latches on the front and rear trunk lids. In the interior, chrome trims, the passenger sun visor, seat belt anchor points, anti-theft panels, rubber floor mats, ashtrays, heating, and the glove compartment were eliminated. In their place, Porsche installed a tachometer with a range of up to 10,000 rpm, a smaller steering wheel, "Scheel" or "Recaro" bucket seats with harnesses, reduced door moldings, thin felt carpeting, and a driver's footrest.
In addition to increasing engine displacement, Porsche applied other measures to the 911 S (ST) engines to increase their power, such as carburetors with specific intake tubes, conical camshafts, and a dual ignition system. For the competition versions, engineers developed an exhaust system optimized for back pressure and modified cylinder heads matching the cylinders. In the final stage of its evolution, the 2.5-liter boxer engine produced 270 horsepower. An additional radiator regulated the engine oil temperature. Koni or Bilstein shock absorbers and body reinforcements improved the driving behavior.
The production of the 911 S (ST) ceased after approximately three years, making way for a competition-focused model with equipment code M471. From that point on, the 911 Carrera RS 2.7, with its sophisticated aerodynamics, increased engine power, and other lightweight construction measures, took the top spot in Porsche's sports car lineup.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/es_ES/carpetas-de-prensa/911-st/Historia--911-S-(ST)-(1969-1972).html

According to this excerpt from the article, a 911 with M471 equipment code was an S/T... If that's the case, should the base price of an S/T, as per the article and the order sheet, be around $35,400?
https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=602862&d=1694532852
19 de enero de 1970


According to the document provided in the previous post, fiberglass extensions could be used starting from January 1972, correct?


Regarding the text accompanying this other car:
"These were quietly announced in a March 1971 sales bulletin titled 'The Competition Options Group.' Porsche offered three different types of cars within that options group: the first was the M471, a race-inspired car for street use or custom GT conversion; the two others, both labeled M491, were track racing or rallye use cars."
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...9&d=1663586814

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Due to the prices in 1081, I believe they are quite low from my perspective. If the price of a new 911S for the year 72 was 32,400 marks, how is it possible, as mentioned in the documentation, that the vehicle was sold to Max for 28,500 marks and then to its owner (pelkse) for 33,000 marks? This could be understood if we interpret that the car, as the text suggests, was already manufactured at the time of the order... Due to the "discounted" price, I feel compelled to ask: Was it a "second-hand" car? Was it a used car? Was it used by the factory, as mentioned in Barth's letter, some time before delivery to "Max"?
If the vehicle included all of this: "To Max Moritz on March 27, 1972, for delivery to the furrier and trader Claus Utz of Reutlingen. It had a lightweight body, thin windows, aluminum trunk lid, sports seats, a 5-speed gearbox, front spoiler, and stabilizer bars. Claus Utz added to his order an 80-liter fuel tank and a special speedometer (up to 300 km), a special tachometer (up to 10,000 rpm), and a limited-slip differential. The engine number was 6321607, and the gearbox number was 326765. Claus Utz paid for the car with some cash, his old 911S, and a Volkswagen."
It is understood that, considering the time the vehicle spent at Max's, there wouldn't have been time for modifications. According to the documentation, it appears that the vehicle was already equipped with all these upgrades and was parked in storage at 115/2. Therefore, the price of the vehicle seems even more peculiar, especially considering Hahn's invoice to Max. 28,000 marks.

If we add 11% to Hahn's price (when it was sold to Max), it gives us an approximate amount of 31,000 marks, which is closer to the price indicated on the sales form for a 911 S (base) priced at 32,500 marks.
So, it is billed as a normal 911S, or it had a price drop for being "second-hand" if we understand that this vehicle was in the warehouses with all those options....
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Has there been any case where the factory renumbers the VIN? In the case of the st a rs it was done (maintaining the knee number). Is there any other case of renumbering by Porsche? Was there a finished car for the factory that later required numbering or renumbering or did they always leave the line with their vin number already assigned and "fixed" over time? It has little to do with the st but I would like to clarify

In the case of the vehicle converted to RS... was the kfz brief maintained? Or is the kfz brief interdependent on a fixed vin number? I know that the different improvements/equipment are noted in the kfz but to be clear, when the vehicle acquired the Vin RS does its kfz also change or is it the same?
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This document was issued by the Zentrum Porsche Neckar-Alb?

23
Where did the prices on the 1081 order form come from? There is a clear difference between the sales price of m220 with that shown on the order form
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[Leirbag]

On RR7 (I wasn't there unfortunately), I saw on the internet a 911 ST which looks like 911 030 0949. So I checked the owner's name and it wasn't the same as the actual 0949 owner.

I wanted to share you this, maybe you can add some if you have !





All images are copyright to their respective owners.


It looks just like the original 0949 back in the days, perfect !!



(I recently discovered that this picture of 0949 was taken on May, 2nd 1971 (in Magny-Cours/France), which is the exact bith date of my dad.)

[patrick911]

Here's a picture I took on the Saturday, when it had rained.
it was advertised in the Rennsport 7 book that this was: "1970 911ST, 9110300949, 2500cc" - but see Hugh's post below. things may be more complicated as there's more than one laying claim to the chassisnr.

[HughH]

I think it is more accurately stated that it is "A" 9000300949

there are at least two cars out there that lay claim to that identity and while there are "formal identifications by an expert" surrounding this version I would only be prepared to believe it was one of at least two contenders after correspondence with people who were involved with it when it seemed to multiply of its own accord including the late Louis Meznarie (not that I am suggesting that he had anything to do with the duplication just he was heavily involves with the car when Larousse owned it following factory ownership and then for a period after that) At one stage the car "borrowed" the license plates and identity of one of Meznarie's cars to avoid french customs issues.

[patrick911]

thanks Hugh, I had no idea, but since internet posts tend to start a life or 'truth' of their own often, i have updated my post.
Apart from that, still an awesome and beautiful car!

[_gonbau]

Excellent work, as always, Hugh, thank you very much for sharing your efforts!

Regarding to #1019
Armando's statement that this was delivered new to Spain, could be the right choice:
There are two pics, which show an apparently Rallye-optioned 2.4S or M491(?)
First one I had on file, tagged as factory tour'72, the other one Gargallo/ Ramon at the Rallye Bosch '72, still with German customs plates("Zollkennzeichen")

Attachment 406184
Attachment 406185

Regards
Wolf

I've been looking for images of the 911 with the 'cover' on the flare, the cover that goes into the suspension cradle. Looking at this photo and understanding that the white vehicle is new, fresh from the factory, I wonder where this cover is on the vehicle? When Porsche made chassis improvements on vehicles (installation of flares in this case), didn't they install the complete piece? (Flare + cover) Why is the cover missing in that part if the vehicle hasn't left the factory yet?"

No The official designation of the cars (including in the homologation papers that they race under) is 911S. So a properly registered "ST" would have been registered as a 911S. There were lots registered for the roads especially in 1969 to 1971 as ALL rally cars were required to be road registered. I know your car's papers has "ST" on them. However that would not have been the official designation from the factory or in a factory invoice (or other paperwork). I dont know why the person importing your car would have done that BUT I think that registration authorities all over the world often just write down what they are given regardless of what is correct and probably the customs / importing people also would have just accepted what they were told. but that does not change the fact that "ST" was never the official designation of the model.
On the plastic I don't know what type of plastic it was. However official build papers for that car as well as the build papers for the 1970 Monte Carlo "ST's" both state "plastic" in the case of front fenders and bumper but say "fibre glass" for other parts. We know that the fuel tanks were made of plastic so it must have been a hard light plastic extruded part like the fuel tank. Porsche had a lot of experience with lightweight materials like that from the early / mid 1960's with the so called "plastic" prototype cars

When you mention those lots/groups, does it mean that the factory had a "batch" of 911s to assign? Would that imply, for example, that these "KFZ" groups were close to each other? Or were vehicles from these groups delivered months apart? And if so... Was the numbering within these KFZ groups distant from each other or not?

"Did they have those batch of 911s 'reserved' with their KFZ from the beginning?"

[Macroni]

This thread and Mark Morrissey's passing makes me wonder where Raj (original poster) is......

[Jim Garfield]

This thread and Mark Morrissey's passing makes me wonder where Raj (original poster) is......

Deleted into oblivion.