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Thread: Ultimate ST thread

  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by matteo68 View Post
    No, I don’t own one of the 21 1972 M491 911S’s (or S-R) - see my signature below.

    S-R shells were taken from the production line as regular S shells with series body parts fitted and were converted to M491 racing version in Werk1. There were M491-specific shells built at any time as far as I am aware (unlike the earlier 30-odd thinner steel shells built in ‘70 & ‘71 for 2.3 ST).
    Hi matteo! Ok, I must have misunderstood you about having an original ST/SR
    Do you mean "there were (no) M491-specific shells built at any time as far as I am aware"?

    But, just looking on my own car (believed to be Waldegård or Åke Anderssons ex rallycross -72 car) there are details on the shell that can´t be modified after the body was assembled as
    some parts (like the dead pedal ect) is spot welded on before the inner box section. I´ve seen on later cars as RSR -74 etc that the dead pedal is not spot welded but welded unto the body with
    seam welds. There are more details, like the 2 clips that holds the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. They are also spot welded, and doing that after the body is finished off the line makes little or no sense.

  2. #822
    Senior Member matteo68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimba View Post
    Hi matteo! Ok, I must have misunderstood you about having an original ST/SR
    Do you mean "there were (no) M491-specific shells built at any time as far as I am aware"?

    But, just looking on my own car (believed to be Waldegård or Åke Anderssons ex rallycross -72 car) there are details on the shell that can´t be modified after the body was assembled as
    some parts (like the dead pedal ect) is spot welded on before the inner box section. I´ve seen on later cars as RSR -74 etc that the dead pedal is not spot welded but welded unto the body with
    seam welds. There are more details, like the 2 clips that holds the oil breather bottle in the engine compartment. They are also spot welded, and doing that after the body is finished off the line makes little or no sense.
    Hi Nimba
    Yes, sorry, that’s what I meant (I’ve since edited my reply), although I stand to be corrected with all these statements and it’s probably best if I shut up again about all this. I could ask Russell Edmonds when I next see him as he knows more than most, having owned 2 genuine M491s, 1 x M471 2.5, the Kremer 2.5 and a works rally car amongst others.
    ESR #4098
    ‘72 T Coupe (donor car for M491 2.5 SR)
    '72 S Coupe (2-owner tangerine unicorn)

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by matteo68 View Post
    Hi Nimba
    Yes, sorry, that’s what I meant (I’ve since edited my reply), although I stand to be corrected with all these statements and it’s probably best if I shut up again about all this. I could ask Russell Edmonds when I next see him as he knows more than most, having owned 2 genuine M491s, 1 x M471 2.5, the Kremer 2.5 and a works rally car amongst others.
    Ok! You don´t need to keep quiet as most of us don´t really know but please ask Russel next time you see him.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by matteo68 View Post
    No, I don’t own one of the 21 1972 M491 911S’s (or S-R) - see my signature below.

    S-R shells were taken from the production line as regular S shells with series body parts fitted and were converted to M491 racing version in Werk1. There were no M491-specific shells built at any time as far as I am aware (unlike the earlier 30-odd thinner steel shells built in ‘70 & ‘71 for 2.3 ST).
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blast View Post
    Hugh,
    I have also heard some refer to the '72's as SR's rather than ST's. When the paint on Chassis no. 911 230 0495 was removed with a plastic media, the letters "ST" were written with a marker pen on the bare metal on both doors and on the chassis in the area of the rear shelf. The car has both original doors with the slots for the pull straps. The letters were written before the primer was sprayed onto the car. I will post pictures when available.

    Like you I did not know if there was an internal designation of ST in the day. However this supports the fact that some in the factory were calling them ST's at some point during production. Whats your take on this?

    Attached are some documents. Note the apparent discrepancy between the two letters. The Barth letter states the car was to be used by the factory. The Spenger letter states the car was sold to an unknown first customer. This is a great thread! Matt
    Matt

    Matt
    I think the same... We are here to ask (in my case) I think that encourages free information! On the other hand, the doubt has arisen and in reference to this post and the denomination that you use S-R. According to the comment shown it would be clear that the M491 vehicles would be called S/T. What do you think? It is not clear to me when SR was used or if it is supported by any inscription (such as the one discussed) or any document
    +
    What tells us that the inscription was made before the primer? was it a destined casing? Or was it an extracted 911S?
    Is there a car currently that has been sold as S/R?

  5. #825
    Senior Member matteo68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _gonbau View Post
    I think the same... We are here to ask (in my case) I think that encourages free information! On the other hand, the doubt has arisen and in reference to this post and the denomination that you use S-R. According to the comment shown it would be clear that the M491 vehicles would be called S/T. What do you think? It is not clear to me when SR was used or if it is supported by any inscription (such as the one discussed) or any document
    +
    What tells us that the inscription was made before the primer? was it a destined casing? Or was it an extracted 911S?
    Is there a car currently that has been sold as S/R?
    Yes Baudett, here: https://www.export56.com/cars/1972-porsche-911-2-5-st/. I know it’s referred to as a 2.5 ST, but read down and you will see it is also (correctly) referred to as an SR.
    ESR #4098
    ‘72 T Coupe (donor car for M491 2.5 SR)
    '72 S Coupe (2-owner tangerine unicorn)

  6. #826
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    certainly and to be honest i thought SR was a "current" invention this proves i was wrong i guess

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    1993 i think
    Motorclasico
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    Observing the green vehicle... Whether they are "SR" or not, what I see is that an S is trying to give an R appearance. Headlights, windows... Not so similar to the S/T appearance.
    on the other hand we have the White vehicle, side oil door and 2.5 engine with double front cooling. It can be seen that it has the "R" windows... the headlights do not but if a modification between ST and R is implied according to what I see in that image... And now the interesting question. Something that would not surprise me. This White vehicle is in your country USA?
    the mirrors correspond to a vehicle prior to 72 correct?

    +

    *I have read about the S/R and only one question occurs to me. The title of the post "is wrong"? If this were as Mr. Monaco1 says (I have no doubt that it was similar to what he says) why were the letters ST written on the 495? Being a shell of 72 and attending to the explanation it should have been called SR?. Perhaps an early shell? It would have taken a shell with an oil side door but the vehicle would have been built in late '71... Is that perhaps why it is designated ST in this case? And if so. It is part of the list of 21. If this is so... The list would be made up of X S/R and X S/T or so I understand. The explanation given by monaco changes several things from my point of view and in the absence of going much deeper, the things it says seem logical to me but... the 495 and the handwritten "designation" of ST in pieces a bit strange. Also, and without wanting to interfere with my vehicle, a German in 1973 imported a vehicle to Tenerife and registered it as a 72 ST. It would have been based on something at that time to register the vehicle as ST and not SR.
    Last edited by _gonbau; 10-28-2022 at 04:56 AM.

  7. #827

  8. #828
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    Any info?

    Quote Originally Posted by 91122 View Post
    Hello!

    I'm looking for help locating 911 ST chassis no. 911 030 1048. My father was the first owner of this car and he raced it for a few years then sold it. His last information about the car was that he sold it to a doctor in Texas, who then sold it to someone in California. But we don't have anymore details to go on than this. VIN searches don't turn up anything. We'd love to located this car as its the 50th anniversary when he won his class at Lime Rock in the car. Any information or to be connected with the current owner would be much appreciated. Sincerely- Cannon
    Anyone have info on this car?? Would love help! Here’s a photo as well. It was co owned by my father and Jim Locke who co drove with him. Thank you.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #829
    Senior Member Eric Gratz's Avatar
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    It looks like holes were added in the front air dam at some point while being raced by Bailey and Locke

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    https://www.racingsportscars.com/dri...ailey-USA.html

  10. #830
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    TOL-Y 25?

    is this vehicle TOL-Y? I don't see the side oil inlet though due to low quality...."who knows"....
    *0721
    I'm going to look where I found the information...
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    https://www.hillclimbing.org/latest

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    https://www.export56.com/racing-services/

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    What vehicle is the one in the picture? 911 130 0721 or 911 230 1195?

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    same car...?
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    front logo among others

    +
    "
    The 2.5 S-R was in fact the 1st FULL race-specified and fully homologated Group 4 car, which could be bought directly from the Porsche factory racing department (the 911-R not being homologated), which came with everything fitted as standard (the previous years T/R and ST’s being built from an option list) and set the pattern for the Factory Group 4 cars to follow, such as the RSR’s and 934’s, etc."
    https://www.export56.com/cars/1972-porsche-911-2-5-st/
    Is it true that the S/T were made by pieces and the "homologated" ones were called "S/R"? according to what I understand from that paragraph... the S/R included all the options "without having to ask for them". In the S/T you had to ask for the options you wanted. Was there then a real distinction on the part of the factory between S/T and S/R?
    What homologation did the S/R use?
    Last edited by _gonbau; 10-22-2022 at 10:38 AM.

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