Another hot rod

[Flunder]

Dave:

Sounds like he continues to make a big impression! Anecdotes please.

I got his old Spare Parts List from a fellow board member in St. Louis.

Tom

[Flunder]

Raj:



Please use your well deserved influence with the P Gods and find me some rod bearings for the Ti rods and you will get the first ride around mid May.


Tom

[Mark Morrissey]

Hey Tom:
I hope my best well wishes is good for seconds!
Mark

[Flunder]

Varunan posted an image earlier in this thread of two grp 2,3 front bumpers.

This image shows another example that we sourced for the project. I tried to get some detail of the characteristic hand notation that is the same as on the one in the image that Varunan posted.

These bumpers were sold by Porsche in a kit that included front grp fenders, a balsa reinforced front grp hood and a grp rear bumper, or individually. These grp parts were homologated for Special GT Group 4 racing. These factory grp items are extremely light weight and I must say, the bumper feels fragile.

Note that the part is layed up in two halves and then bonded together. The mounting tabs are in ALU.

The paper sticker number tag shows: 911.505.905.00

In the Spare Parts List the same number is shown with the notation:
"911.505.905.00 bumper front...materia artificiale"

This example served as the pattern for the duplicate the shop made up in steel for the hot rod, as discussed previously and shown again below in the final image.

[Flunder]

These images illustrate the three versions of what I think is the typical factory 2,3 pattern roll bar.

What I refer to as the 2,3 pattern is the same as the early 901 style hoop but with the addition of the FIA cross brace running diagonally from the main hoop on the upper left hand side to the lower back brace on right hand side.

These could be ordered over the counter from the dealer but were a special order item and have been NLA since the late 80s. They were expensive relative to the aftermarket equivalents. TRE has done us a service in making faithful reproductions.

The pattern of the roll bar used by the factory for the 2,5 and the 2,8 was changed. The new 2,5/2,8 version generally had the FIA cross brace running from the main hoop on the upper right hand side to the lower back brace on the left hand side.

Examples of 2,3 pattern roll bar

A. The first image shows a typical 2,3 pattern roll bar in steel. Another board member found this example in southern Massachusetts with some other old race parts. The donor car is unknown. This is the pattern of roll bar typically seen inside the cockpit of most 2,3 ST whether privateer or factory prepped. There are signs of factory green metal etching primer showing through the original-finish black satin paint.

901.803.020.21Sturzbugel-Safety bar-arceau de securite STEEL

B. The second image shows another steel roll bar from a 1971 ST Safari car with its distinctive upholstered padding. The soft interior foam on the main hoop is upholstered in typical Porsche grained leatherette. This roll bar had been abandoned at a shop in Germany where one of the Safari cars was updated for FIA sanctioned vintage rallies in Europe. And, as the regs for FIA "vintage" rally cars call for current FIA approved safety equipment, the owner had no further use for it. That particular car has since been returned to its original Safari trim. The exposed (non-upholstered) portions of this roll bar have been re-painted (let's be honest here, spray bombed) in gloss black. It would have been painted black satin originally.

Note: There is not a separate part number shown in the spare parts manual for the upholstered padding on the Safari version.

C. The third image shows the same 2,3 pattern roll bar but in ALU. This is the roll bar that is discussed earlier in the thread. As previously mentioned, this one had been in the basement of a long time PCA member in Lexington, Massachusetts here in New England. This roll bar had remnants of its original black satin finish when liberated for the hot rod. What little original finish remained was stripped. There was no primer coat beneath the black satin.

The bar in the first image seems to be a couple of pounds heavier than the Safari version. I assume is was fabricated from thicker walled tubing as compared to the Safari bar.

The ALU bar is an example of The Third Axiom: ADD LIGHTNESS

911.803.901.00 Sturzbugel - Safety bar - Arceau de securite ALU

The footplates on all three are made to the identical distinctive pattern to mount on the weld-in factory crows feet shown in a prior post. In addtion, the FIA cross brace is welded in the same position on the hoop and each hoop is mandrel bent in a 24" radius.

These common features lead me to believe that these three roll bars were built on the same jig. I expect that the production of these roll bars was outsourced by the Race Dept to a local tube bender.

The final image shown below is from McKlein Photography. It shows the interior of one of the '71 ST Safari cars and provides an excellent period view of a rally car roll bar similar to the one shown above - but not exact. This image provides lots of clues as to how the interior of an ST was factory trimmed in 1971. Note the black headliner (not seen on a production 911 until the '73 RS), unbound needle felt lightweight carpet, RePa belts and harnesses made with "orange thread" two inch webbing, distinctive puckered perforations on bolsters of driver side Recaro seat, but plain bolsters on the bucket for the co-driver, and the obligatory helmet boxes.

[Flunder]

Here is an example of the type of Marelli 12 plug distributor used on 2,5 ST and 2,8 RSR with larger diameter 30mm neck. This is quite similar to the earlier 906, 911R and 2,3 ST version, which had a slightly smaller neck measuring 27mm in diameter and is easily distinguished by the clamping lever on the lower section of the housing neck - see second image below.

The longstroke case had a 30mm hole for the distributor while the earlier cases used from MY 65 through MY 71 all had 27mm holes. You can see the difference in the neck sizes in the second image. The same distributor cap was used on both the 27mm and 30mm necked version of the Marelli.

The 27mm neck version of the Marelli is correct for a 2,3L race engine. It is listed in the April 1970 comp spare parts list. A scan of the relevant page from the list is shown below to reference the early Marelli part number:

901.602.025.00 Distributor Marelli
999.511.046.02 Clamping lever
901.602.905.00 Distributor cap

The 30mm neck version of the Marelli was first seen on the 12 cylinder Typ 917, in which application two of these 12 plug distributors were employed.

911.602.029.00 Distributor MARELLI
901.602.905.00 Distributor cap

This 30mm neck version will be used on the old ANDIAL engine for the hot rod.

The period ignition set-up for a 2,5 long stroke engine calls for two three pin CDI boxes, two CD coils and the 30mm Marelli 12 spark. The second image shows the size of the three pin box (on your right) relative to the Bosch eight pin CDI.

The Bosch CDI boxes shown in the first image are the 8 pin RSR 3,0 versions discussed earlier in this thread. They were used with the old ANDIAL engine with a Bosch breakerless distributor in John Ds still-born GTU car.

The factory switched to the breakerless Bosch distributor on the RSR 3,0 for a number of reasons, but at least partly because the Marelli was prone to problems with its twin sets of conventional breaker points.

Jerry Woods makes up the parts necessary to convert these Marellis with Pertronix components to alleviate the problems with the old fashioned, problematic and less than reliable breaker points.

Other items in the first image are good for hot rods: 300 km/h speedo for a 2,8 RSR (bought from Stoddard in the early '90s before it became NLA), Bosch cut off switch, clock block off plug 911.552.205.00 for RS lightweight, 3,0 RS and RSR.

I believe that the VDO clocks were left in place in most factory built STs, whether intended for circuit or rally use.

Dog toys, kids' video games, etc. are not intended for use on the hot rod.

[Jim Garfield]

Dog toys, kids' video games, etc. are not intended for use on the hot rod.

I was just about to say that the fuzzy bear is not a factory item.

Tom, just an amazing project. The east coast guys are suffering from extreme cabin fever, I've sent a pm about a remedy.

[Flunder]

Hi Jim;

Reply sent relating to possible curative measures.

Tom

[Flat Six, inc.]

Tom...great thread!....I was wondering what happen to this car? I remember seeing it on Ebay and freaking out a bit.....

[Flunder]

Hi Aaron:

Yes, that is John D's still-born GTU car.

It was a no-sale twice on the 'bay. His daughter did not know alot about the engine but knew it was something special as she had accompanied her dad to PCA events for some years - she drove it too.

Wheels were 10s and 14s, transmission was a G50 with a close ratio gear set and limited slip. Raised shift tower by Fabcar who also provided a hydraulic clutch set up and their hanging pedal cluster with balance bar. Big aftermarket brakes, needle bearing coil over suspension, old school club car.

I think the race pump and support bracket, 2R throttles, amber shroud, Bosch eight pin boxes and 12 plug distributor, 906 fan, etc. are all pretty clear in the pics. That's what tipped us to the engine. I telephoned the seller and she sent me the ANDIAL invoice, dyno sheet and other documentation. She also sent me a letter from ANDIAL saying that the engine had been sourced directly from Porsche as a complete used race engine.

I think that was back in late 2006 or early 2007. You may recall we exchanged some posts on it in another thread back then.

One of our fellow board members (thanks Jim L.) had met the owner and knew the background of the engine. We discussed it at some length and spoke to the guys at the shop where the 2,9 work was done.

It seemed like a compelling opportunity to get an interesting race engine for the hot rod. What we could see looked nice and complete; the grenade filter, RSR fly wheel, the like new 10.3 2,9 Mahle p&c plus lots of other bits one is unable to see in the pics, and not listed on the ANDIAL information, provided a nice bonus for a tired old parts chaser. The engine was a bit of a pig in a poke, I admit, but it seems to have worked out.

Also, chasing old race parts is fun, I guess because no one could buy this stuff from the factory back in the day without an FIA license and a track record of good finishes. I called V. Polak more then once to order race stuff - they took the order and then,,,,nothing.

I had heard about and read about the 2R 41mm high butterfly but no one that we knew had actually seen one at the time. Many said the set-up simply did not exist.

Matt B had NEVER had a set sent to him for a rebuild - although since this set-up came to light he has had another in for service. The one he had in for service had been opened up to 43mm. Of course, E-H Racing Porsche in the UK has had a few of them.

Finding ANDIAL 129 with the 2R injection set-up really got the hot rod project focused and seemed to set off a chain of fortuitous parts finds. As soon as the engine was delivered to CT, a car turned up at the shop for an RSR treatment and donated its cast off, dealer installed factory steel ST flares.

The next weekend I went up to Lexington MA to look at a factory burzel and found the ALU roll bar sitting next to the ducktail in the basement, untouched for 30 years. Again, I had read about alloy roll bars used in STs in Ludvigsen's book but still nearly fell over when I saw it. At that point it was possible to believe that we had the building blocks in hand to provide the result we wanted to achieve - a factory style 71S hot rod.

Following Gib's Kremer 2,5 build, reading about Chris Nielsen's car in Excellence and watching the Wicky car thread materialize all helped to keep the dream alive while the rest of the parts continued to bubble to the surface.

Another interesting find was the NOS pair of ALU door skins. I called around looking for ALU door skins, new or used, after seeing them listed in the Competition Spare Parts List. After a couple months of searching it seemed there were none to be found. Then, out of the blue, the guys at the shop saw an NOS pair of ALU door skins on the bird site and fired off an email to me at work. Interestingly, a few months later another nos pair came up for sale in the UK and a fellow board member now has them installed on his '69 homologation light weight.

I cajoled the seller into selling the skins to me - and he has since become an active board member. Of course, it was fun to learn that they came from the very same parts counter that used to ignore my orders, V. Polak, as did the Type 917 finned ALU Blau gas cap that came up on the 'bay a couple of years ago.

Here are the skins and finned ALU Blau gas cap that had been at V. Polak. The big Blau cap goes by an early part number for Carrera 6:

906.201.023.04 Tank closing