Thanks, the drivers near side bolster has quite a bit of wear, so I’m careful when I get in and out. Hopefully a few more years use left in them.Originally Posted by 911int
Thanks, the drivers near side bolster has quite a bit of wear, so I’m careful when I get in and out. Hopefully a few more years use left in them.
My 67’ 912
@mrp911: I find your conclusions very interesting and have often read such long statements from you. What I don't understand now: what you're obviously talking about is that, in your opinion, D-shape headrests (letherette) were still used after the fall of 1971? If so, what is your assumption based on? Or have I misunderstood something?
regards uwe
I didn’t draw conclusions? To be clear I asked question; did not make an assumption.
I’d say I am yet to be convinced, I wrote this question:“Has anyone seen actual factory evidence of D being the only type of headrest used for real leather trim?”
The question was triggered by the photos in post #932 which is clearly a staged artistic shot. For that reason these might be not representative of production or be in-period shots.
The photo above is as the images appear in the well known Carrera RS book (first edition). The book’s subject being just a one year model is about model 73. It’s not without error but it’s a well researched book by respected authors Gruber and Konradsheim who had factory archive access.
Their photo caption doesn’t say D-shaped was only used in leather it is more ambiguous: ”Two sportseats from the M 409 with varying headrests. Both variations were built and installed alternately”. Taking the photo and caption at face value, it seems to show both Peanut and D-shapes in vinyl in context of a model 73 RS equipment. Not period evidence since the provenance if photos not known. Enough to bring the point to mind again and to ask question on this thread. The image and caption probably have been in the back of my mind for three decades since ever receiving the original RS book around 1992. To be clear I’m not saying this particular photo in book counts as period evidence but perhaps one reason why I expressed doubts. Also I have a feeling I’ve seen M471 sport with D shaped headrests in period photos from 73 but not checked. Not checked period photos of M472 at new either. I’ve also seen that the country equipment and shipping code variations may not always be given the weight they should vin understating if there are country and regional regulatory differences in equipment used or when changes were rolled out across the multinational network. Not saying it’s a factor in this case but wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.
So the question: is it recorded in period that that D-shaped headrest only continued in real leather around 73? I know the some interior materials changed in 73 for fire resistance (that fact is documented a number of original factory papers on my shelf per Michael’s point). I realise that the design of D-shape is easier to trim in real leather but even if logical and correct is that actually proof of vinyl never being used on D-shaped headrests in 72/3? Peanut regularly seen 72/3 granted; but vinyl D-shaped never used then? Seems rather dogmatic.
Frankly it doesn’t matter in terms of originality for my own car. My RS didn’t have any headrests at new
The lore might indeed be proven correct but I’m seeking evidence ideally beyond “train-spotting of what’s fitted” since what’s present today may not be reliable (where we have data think it’s correct that only around one third of the approximately 1500 RS have headrests recorded as M-option). To the point about Germany mandating headrests 1999, many markets didn’t mandate headrests until later so perhaps similar across worldwide TES?
Because this doesn’t pertain to my car’s original equipment list I actually don’t care too strongly either way what the facts show — while I’m not yet convinced, as always, I’m open to where the in-period evidence leads. Often things thought correct by the gurus or old guard regarding some niche feature turn out to be not so when the evidence is looked at. Just shaking the tree on a seating thread with nearly 1000 posts to see what period evidence falls out. Pictures from model 73 from 911 when new and across all country market would inform the most.
Steve
Last edited by 911MRP; 03-08-2024 at 11:26 PM.
Ah ok. So I understand that you are essentially asking two questions: was there also peanut in real leather? and was there also d-shape in letherette in 1973?
Of course I can't rule out both 100%. Maybe someone who ordered a new car in 1973 actually made such a special request. But if you approach the question like that, then you can't rule anything out. As you probably know, there were interior fittings in “all” conceivable versions - upon special request. In my opinion, you should ignore that if you want to form a rule. The rule shows what was “normal” at the time. You can then rely on it, unless you have one of the few cars that actually have a special request. Then you should research the special features of your vehicle. That's not in any accessories brochures or anything like that.
The fact is: I'm interested and have been collecting old Recaros and Scheel for 25 yearsIn the meantime only information, no more seats - . During that time I saw a lot of seats and looked at them closely. The oldest sports seat from Recaro that I had with Peanut was October 1971. That was about 20 years ago - everything on the seat was still original and in good condition. I'm pretty sure that the headrest was the original back then, then the seat was brown and brown seats aren't that common.
So one can assume that Recaro switched to Peanut in the second half of 1971. Recaro cycles are not the same as Porsche cycles - so you can't say such headrests were available exactly from the summer of 1971 (when the 72 Porsche model was introduced). I'm quite sure that it makes no sense to install Letherette D-Shapes in large quantities again 1.5 to 2 years later. why should they do that? and where should they come from? However, Recaro also offered headrests without covers as accessories, for example in 1972. so practical to use yourself. could that have been d-shape? it will no longer be possible to clarify...
Peanut in real leather: The explanation that real leather is much harder to produce (and then not as beautiful) is understandable and is also confirmed by several saddlers who have tried it. In this respect, yes, D-shape in real leather was also available after September 1971. Peanut in real leather was not so common - see above for possible exceptions. Hope I could help a bit. regards uwe
I wasn’t meaning the special wishes.
You clearly have owned a lot. I was ideally looking for something written to say when and why D shaped headrests in vinyl were stopped.
Because my car never had headrests fitted at new (not standard in UKand not listed on fahzeug-auftreag, documents from its new )
This is the sole concessionaire’s s press demo rhd m472 almost new whist being run in
Like mine so the headrest not been a big focus for me, just curious to see what evidence emerges on this thread.
Documents or period photos going back further than seats you’ve collected since 1999. Preferably 1972/3 pictures with headrests— such a high proportion of the RS (that’s the model I follow) didn’t have headrests fitted originally at new so it is hard to be certain how it was for sure*.
In this thread it would be useful to also show seats as they were new in addition to showing seats as they are today. Better putting that in the active seat thread of nearly 1000 posts than starting new thread. Then it could act as authenticity reference — lot can happen to seats in five decades and very few even here have owned cars from new. I would expect to see peanut vinyl of course but haven’t yet ruled out seeing D shaped in vinyl headrests snapped in 73.
Quite a lot of photos I have of RS clearly at new show them without headrests — my interest is the 73 RS model not officially sold in USA so a headrest was not mandatory and if required was often an additional cost M-option :
however I suspect many of the cars got headrests added later in life when folks learned the safety benefits; if so then just inspecting them could draw wrong inferences as to original form.
I did find one factory collection by footballer in spring of 73 and not a surprise it’s with peanut headrest on what look to be comfort seats this car lots of option without numbers like wider wheel, cibies and perhaps non standard hue side stripe?
the 911 T,E or S the in background viewed through rear screen doesn’t seem to have a headrest
With the reach of the ESR community it would be interesting if somone posts photos of D-shaped vinyl headrests in model 72/3 cars from when brand new or nearly new.
That’s my challenge to the folks it might make this thread even more useful and become a a reference if also show any pictures of 911 seats at new, not only seats as they are now.
Steve
Last edited by 911MRP; 03-09-2024 at 05:06 AM.
hi Steve, I understand your concern. As a collector of documents, I naturally prefer to find clear written evidence of something and I have a lot specifically for the 60s. But what is important to us today was not so important back then. The development of D-Shape into Peanut was not a Porsche development, but by Recaro. I guess Porsche didn't really care. What also helped me a lot in building up my knowledge was a lot of conversations with people from back then over the years. Last week, for example, I had a conversation with the chief developer of Recaro from the 70s. But: the man is 84 years old today. He no longer remembers details that are important to us today and that wasn't important to him back then either, e.g. What was the reason for the interim series of Porsche brackets in 1971/72...
It's difficult with headrests anyway, they can be changed in seconds, even on new cars. If you see a picture from 1973 that shows a car from the outside and you see D-shape, you probably can't tell whether it's real leather or letherette - so it doesn't help you either.
Otherwise, if it helps you: I own a 1973 Recaro bucket from an RS Sport. This still has the original seat cover and NO holes in the fabric for the headrest. So even in 2024 there will be clear evidence that this seat was delivered without a headrest.
Hope I could help a bit. and good luck on your search!
regards uwe
Thanks Uwe. Headrests being interchangeable are perhaps not cindideted big deal on correct spec as some other things knand agree hard to tell the cover material from a distance. Easy to see when headrests are not there however!
I quite enjoy trying to get factually to original spec and understand spec supersession particularly for the 73 RS. More interesting little brain teaser challenge than doing newspaper crosswords and the like.
Regarding comment “The development of D-Shape into Peanut was not a Porsche development, but by Recaro. I guess Porsche didn't really care”
Before my time in the industry and maybe an era when safety benefits of head restraints in certain collisions wasn’t as well understood or if it was those benefits not being promulgated? I suppose any part that might affect the crash tests I both parties would have cared about. Even before some country regulators mandated their use and some country importers as consequence were required to specify them in the cxx equipment bundle. Perhaps owners didn’t know enough to pay to option them. Not cheap in the UK — £25 for headrests when a Recaro sport upgrade without head restraints was less than double at £45! I expect the mandatory fitment in USA had placed it on the radar. I’m sure it wasn’t lost in Porsche or Recaro the head restraint where fitted is in close proximity to occupants so I’d hope even at that time proper consideration was given by them and Recaro.
I expect both were considered safe as both forms are certainly used in model 73.
I put credence on things if they are recorded or photographed back in the day rather than just opinion or based on assumption what see present today it is as it was done decades before. Agree sometimes it’s hard to find facts, sometimes opinion is a clue where to dig. Other times it turns out it’s folklore that gets disproved but that had been ascribed credence because it was the opinion of folks who have been around the old Porsche hobby a while.
Steve
Last edited by 911MRP; 03-09-2024 at 02:31 PM.
I would also like to point out that my knowledge is not based on the fact that I see something today and basically assume that it looked the same more than 50 years ago. The opposite is the case: until I save some of my “research” as knowledge, I usually prefer to protect myself several times. greetings + have a nice weekend
Uwe
Wasn’t suggesting that characterisation applied to you but is certainly the case where “folklore” on some parts where fact based deep dives have been done strongly held views held by people of influence have been debunked. Let’s see if any period evidence emerges — expect not but worth asking and this thread with so many posts is probably the place to surface it. Have a good weekend. Steve
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