Pet Peeve - Improper use of Euro front signal lenses

Am I the only person that this bothers? I see it on all manner of expensive restored cars. People put the amber/clear euro lenses on US front turn signal housings. Looks silly, and seems like a big lack of attention to detail to me.

The whole idea of the bi-color lenses is so that the parking light (side light) is separated from the turn signal light. Parking light (in most of the world) is white (the clear section), and the signal light (again, in most places) is amber.

To do this the rest of the world got a different light housing with a divider that separates the two lighting functions, each section with its own single-filament bulb. The US housings don't have the divider, and have one dual-filament bulb to do both parking and turn signal functions.

It's easy to see when these euro lenses have been improperly used - since there is no divider, the clear section shows an amber reflection from the inside when the lights are off. And both the parking lights and the signals light the entire lamp (both sections) together.

Please people, if you want to use the euro-lenses, either modify or replace the light housings to match. Or just stick with the all-amber US lenses.

Wrong:

Attachment 564394

Correct:

https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...2&d=1634964984

You kids get off my lawn!

At my age....things like this just don't tend to bother me anymore.
Whatever floats your boat.

Sounds like a product to make Arne. A simple glue in divider. Maybe Audette could make it? John?

This 'floats my boat'. Life's too short. ;)

Attachment 564395

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Originally Posted by Longballa

Sounds like a product to make Arne. A simple glue in divider. Maybe Audette could make it? John?

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If it doesn't bother anyone but me, there's not enough market. But for me, it would bug me to have euro-look lenses without the proper euro-function.

Oh well, I'll keep it to myself from now on.

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Originally Posted by Arne

If it doesn't bother anyone but me, there's not enough market. But for me, it would bug me to have euro-look lenses without the proper euro-function.

Oh well, I'll keep it to myself from now on.

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I had never noticed it but I learned something and share your point.

Thanks

Richard

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Originally Posted by Arne

If it doesn't bother anyone but me, there's not enough market. But for me, it would bug me to have euro-look lenses without the proper euro-function.

Oh well, I'll keep it to myself from now on.

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Don't feel too bad, Arne. I have my own peeves with even less significant details. You should hear the sound I make when I see an incorrect, grey adhesive rear view mirror pad.

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Originally Posted by LiveFromNY

Don't feel too bad, Arne. I have my own peeves with even less significant details. You should hear the sound I make when I see an incorrect, grey adhesive rear view mirror pad.

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Heh, heh. Why do you think I got some of the dark adhesive pads from you last year?

Cool down.

"Divider"-- City light bulb holder can been purchased here: https://sportwagen-eckert.com/produc...rsche-911.html

BTW the inner ROW reflector, which is not transparent, should be also replace in a US turn signal housing

….. And let’s not start on those unfortunate sugar scoops (however “USA original”)

While I don’t have the Euro lens’s, I do have the incorrect mirror tape. Doesn’t seem to effect the exhilaration I feel every time I drive my car. Perhaps I have a old Porsche for the wrong reason?

...and don't get me started on horn grilles installed without seals!

;-)

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Originally Posted by dirk07

"Divider"-- City light bulb holder can been purchased here: https://sportwagen-eckert.com/produc...rsche-911.html

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Amazing.

So, how do you install it? The original Bosch special rivets cannot be replicated...

Anyway, if I was a resident in USA, I'd use USA-spec turn signals and lenses. There's nothing wrong with them. Red looks cool. In fact, USA lenses are better quality because they are through dyed, whereas Euro lenses are only surface dyed, so can fade quickly.

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Originally Posted by blue72s

Amazing.

So, how do you install it? The original Bosch special rivets cannot be replicated...

Anyway, if I was a resident in USA, I'd use USA-spec turn signals and lenses. There's nothing wrong with them. Red looks cool. In fact, USA lenses are better quality because they are through dyed, whereas Euro lenses are only surface dyed, so can fade quickly.

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The dividers are not riveted. The housings have two 'tits' molded in the rear wall. They are then swaged to hold the divider in place. Once done on a euro housing, replacing a divider means figuring out how to attach by a different means (drilling and rivet maybe or epoxy).

The US housings have those tits in the mold. Adding the divider is easy peezy.

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Originally Posted by dirk07

Cool down.

"Divider"-- City light bulb holder can been purchased here: https://sportwagen-eckert.com/produc...rsche-911.html

BTW the inner ROW reflector, which is not transparent, should be also replace in a US turn signal housing

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Can't tell if that includes the rubber seal where the reflector contacts the lens or if that's just for the galvanized reflector?

Oh, man. So I guess I'm really in the doghouse for putting Cibie headlights on my USA '69T? But to do that, I had to remove the original sugar-scoops. What will Saint Peter say when I get to the Pearly Gates? I'm so confused!

Attachment 564400

Everyone's entitled to a pet peeve or two. Personally, after so many years, I'm quite comfortable with the sugar scoops.

I like this pet peeve thread...as someone just about to embark on a rebuild of a 69S from ground up - on a freshly painted perfect shell, this thread has the possibility to improve the standard of build given the expertise out there...

I prefer to see the ungainly original sugar scoops than an incorrect H4 the one with extra small light that has no place on a 72 and 73 model year 911 - not a peeve it just jars because they’re simply not correct on that period. It only becomes a “peeve” when I see these later incorrect H4 mis-sold for the pre impact bumper cars by people who should know better.

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Originally Posted by 70SATMan

The dividers are not riveted. The housings have two 'tits' molded in the rear wall. They are then swaged to hold the divider in place. Once done on a euro housing, replacing a divider means figuring out how to attach by a different means (drilling and rivet maybe or epoxy).

The US housings have those tits in the mold. Adding the divider is easy peezy.

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I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. So, how do you swage it? Which tool?

Sugar scoops with H4 inserts ;)
Attachment 564422

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Originally Posted by blue72s

I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. So, how do you swage it? Which tool?

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That material is pretty soft, all it takes is round over punch. Careful use of a drift gets er done. You could even use the tits as alignment and use JB weld. I'd prep the housing area first though by carefully sanding through the plating to get to the cast zinc.

A classic car owns you but you own your Hot Rod!!

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Originally Posted by Longballa

A classic car owns you but you own your Hot Rod!!

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so very true!!

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A classic car owns you but you own your Hot Rod!!

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GREAT quote Scott !!!

hmmm isn`t any use of euro specs parts on US specs cars improper(talking about top-notch restos....not hot rod)? i mean like ...yes US specs cars are sometimes very ugly compared to there european silblings..but hey thats how it was back in the days...my.02

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Originally Posted by Longballa

A classic car owns you but you own your Hot Rod!!

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so true...

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Originally Posted by moito

US specs cars are sometimes very ugly compared to there european silblings..but hey thats how it was back in the days...my.02

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Goes both ways... '74 Carreras in Germany without the ducktail, Euro 911SC and 3.2 cars with the terrible side markers, etc.

Yeah, everyone wants what their cars didn't come with. Doesn't matter what cars we are talking about. Here in the US many '79+ VW Mk1 Rabbit (Golf) owners change their fenders and front body panels to convert to the round headlights that everyone else got. And if they are sharp, they sell their old square light parts to someone in Germany, where the square lights are popular simply because they are different.

Me, I like my H1s because they look better. And I like amber rear signals for safety. (Numerous studies in the mid-70s showed cars with separate amber rear turn signals had a lower rate of being rear-ended.)

And if I'm going to have both H1s and tri-color rear lenses, I may as well have the matching bi-color fronts. But not if they aren't set up to work properly...

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Originally Posted by Arne

Yeah, everyone wants what their cars didn't come with. Doesn't matter what cars we are talking about...

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A bit of an broad generalisation Arne :) ? I suspect some folks want their cars to be simply authentic to original factory spec possibly matching numbers, original paint and so forth ….or if something is worn out will prefer to have it restored with carefully selected maybe hard to find nos parts drawing on deep authenticity knowledge and skill. Up to owners if they want to do something to a car reflecting their their personal taste but on the other hand some maybe see a stewardship as an important factor in their time owning a car that (probably) preceded and might outlive the person who is the current owner. Sometimes a hot rod outlaw etc is the thing to do but other times owners (although it is their prerogative) sometimes have things done that erase originality so rare exemplars are lost.

Regarding things like the example of the side-light in your OP or the headlamp with a redundant holder/ bulb seem more obvious to — doing it just don’t seem particularly elegant configuration choice even if parts physically fit. At least are easily reversible unlike some other things that get done impact upon “ it is only original once” adage.

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Originally Posted by LiveFromNY

Goes both ways... '74 Carreras in Germany without the ducktail, Euro '68 cars with the terrible side markers, etc.

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I've seen '68 cars with and without the "terrible side markers". I assumed that the "terrible side markers" were on US cars, or is this not the case?

68 Sidemarkers are US only

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Originally Posted by 911MRP

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Originally Posted by Arne

Yeah, everyone wants what their cars didn't come with. Doesn't matter what cars we are talking about...

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A bit of an broad generalisation Arne :) ?

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Absolutely. A bit of exaggeration to make the point. Not "everyone" wants to to make changes to the original spec. But many do...

I'm with Arne on this one. One of the first things I addressed when I got my "classic" with euro lenses and USA housings. Maybe the next one will be a hotrod! :D

Good to know about the source for the divider. Anyone know a source for these little buggers?
Attachment 564449

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Originally Posted by Longballa

A classic car owns you but you own your Hot Rod!!

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So true....

The originality issue may be a bit of a generational thing. In my years involved in the hobby I have perceived a definite difference in how owners from different eras value originality in pretty much chronological order:

1. 356 owners - Wide spread and deep. Some hot rods maybe, as long as they're Emory's.
2. Longhood owners - Not as wide as 356 owners, but still deep in spots. Can get off the hook with hot rods.
3. G-Series owners - Big drop off. Appear to be more interested in performance enhancements.
4. Post G-Series - I have no idea. Other than the 993, a whole different world. Tokyo at midnight creeps in.

FWIW.

John

yeah the US turn signal with euro lens looks kinda stupid when turned on and both the white and orange section lights up. Besides the divider; I think a wiring has to be done to make it correct. Chris

I was thinking many years ago it's funny all the time and money that goes into the lighting for these early cars and how much little time they even get driven at night! I have John's very nice LED headlights on my 87 and I've driven it one time at night since I installed them and that was to test them. Haha, I drive my cars quite a lot it's just never at night.

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Originally Posted by dirk07

68 Sidemarkers are US only

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Oops. Yes, of course. Was thinking of the terrible side markers on Euro 911SC and 3.2 cars and my brain went to '68 cars and their equally terrible side markers that were indeed U.S. only.

Yes, add a copper connector on the inside of the rear plastic cover so the dual filament bulb has two separate connectors. Euro has only one..

Cees

QUOTE=raspy2point2;1112790]yeah the US turn signal with euro lens looks kinda stupid when turned on and both the white and orange section lights up. Besides the divider; I think a wiring has to be done to make it correct. Chris[/QUOTE]

just at random, i was looking at the 'rare options' thread, and in the middle was this 66 car heading to USA, that had 'clear' front turn signals (parking lights)(most likely with the divider and light bulb)
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...+early+options

I thought this had some relevance to this thread....as about turn signals (front parking lights) and what was made...and what is considered correct (or available) for USA, or other countries.

Attachment 564505

Attachment 564520

I think the clear turn signal lenses were used in Italy.

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

I think the clear turn signal lenses were used in Italy.

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Italians were colored the reverse of Euro lenses.

Yeah, you're right. Here are a couple pictures of a customer's car that is shown at the Petersen from time to time:

Attachment 564543

Attachment 564544

The owner is a very interesting man. He does much of the restoration work himself.

Cheers,
John

I'd love to hear any opinions about those so-called, "Italian" taillight lenses. I've seen them offered for sale by the usual online vendors, but never on an original car. I personally own 3 very original Italian cars and all three have the standard, Euro rear taillight lenses.

BTW, that's a very pretty car, John. But please advise the owner to install a correct, square-edged muffler tip (this is a thread about pet peeves, after all).

JP....

Sent you an email.

John

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Originally Posted by Scott A

just at random, i was looking at the 'rare options' thread, and in the middle was this 66 car heading to USA, that had 'clear' front turn signals (parking lights)(most likely with the divider and light bulb)
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...+early+options

I thought this had some relevance to this thread....as about turn signals (front parking lights) and what was made...and what is considered correct (or available) for USA, or other countries.

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I agree with that Scott and also, if you notice the rear signals in Amber and the notes showing Euro headlights and "Standard European domestic model".

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Originally Posted by Arne

But for me, it would bug me to have euro-look lenses without the proper euro-function.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by pgxif

….. And let’s not start on those unfortunate sugar scoops (however “USA original”)

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Also agreed.

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Originally Posted by raspritz

Oh, man. So I guess I'm really in the doghouse for putting Cibie headlights on my USA '69T? But to do that, I had to remove the original sugar-scoops. What will Saint Peter say when I get to the Pearly Gates? I'm so confused!

Attachment 564400

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I replaced my sugar scoops with H1s because (a) better lighting than sugar scoops (b) correct for RoW cars of the same model year as mine (c) LED units weren't available at the time.

Attachment 564545

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Originally Posted by Longballa

I was thinking many years ago it's funny all the time and money that goes into the lighting for these early cars and how much little time they even get driven at night! I have John's very nice LED headlights on my 87 and I've driven it one time at night since I installed them and that was to test them. Haha, I drive my cars quite a lot it's just never at night.

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Ditto. I don't drive my car night very often. For me, lights are often as much about being seen as seeing. I do a lot of driving on tree-lined roads and a small green car gets kind of camouflaged in spring and summer.

My Italian 73S, 9/10 72 build, Came to me in 1988 with Bosch Euro taillight lenses. Only the front signal light lenses are clear on the inner 2/3; the outer third is amber.

I like the look even though incorrect/nonfunctional...I rarely drive it at night

Attachment 564546

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Originally Posted by dirk07

Cool down.

"Divider"-- City light bulb holder can been purchased here: https://sportwagen-eckert.com/produc...rsche-911.html

BTW the inner ROW reflector, which is not transparent, should be also replace in a US turn signal housing

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I have a real need for these from time to time. I have fabricated them at times in the past but I would prefer originals. However when I go to this link I'm unable to find a buy button. What am I missing?

Thanks,
John

those ITALIAN lenses are very beatiful!!

Audette, I couldn't find click to buy either.
I violated the original post comment... and I wanted to fix it up better.

I entirely endorse both the euro lens and the stark division of lights in the euro housing. Sorry to distract the subject, but given mine are hacked to death, is there advice (or a thread) discussing the merits of restore vs replace?

Separately, I love how this thread has animated the board. It is stumbling real time into one of those old threads you discover where you can't quite believe the level of detail which was discussed.

"For price inquiries, availability and ORDERS, please write an email to info@sportwagen-eckert.com / use our contact form or call us on 08431 40740."

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

I have a real need for these from time to time. I have fabricated them at times in the past but I would prefer originals. However when I go to this link I'm unable to find a buy button. What am I missing?

Thanks,
John

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I posted this somewhere on the forum but I never posted it here. In case you missed the other thread, I have these Euro city light bulb holder mounts available now. I ordered the OEM blank metal plates and configured them myself.

Attachment 580671

I use white wire now, the same that the factory used. You will find them at the AC Shop - $118.00 a pair. It seems that the lack of a city light for the proper section of the Euro lenses bugged a lot of folks as I have sold lots of them. Easy to install as both turn signal housings, U.S. and Euro, have small prongs on the inside of the housings that they mount on.

Cheers,
John

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Originally Posted by longballa

a classic car owns you but you own your hot rod!!

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nbc




amen

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Originally Posted by Arne

Heh, heh. Why do you think I got some of the dark adhesive pads from you last year?

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Have you got any more please @LivefromNY? (can’t see a PM link for you on your profile)

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Originally Posted by matteo68

,,,,, @LivefromNY? (can’t see a PM link for you on your profile)

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That's because he was booted from the board for daring to question...

Here is another resource for our early cars. You can find him there.

https://early911registry.com/forums/

Ah, okay, thanks! I'm on there too so will make contact.

and how do you " mount" the divider on the little tits glue, grinder, steak it, swage it (whatever that is) What? and then where does the wire connector go?

There's no pressure on it of any kind so I think silicone suffices. The wire attaches where the U.S. city light contacts used to attach.

Attachment 581325

As contacts there are no longer needed I use them for the Euro city bub mounts (love the circular nature of that). The factory used white wire that it ran along the inside bottom front of the housing and secured at one point with a dab of something or other.

Ok, so I'm reading this thread thinking that I'm one of those terrible owners who is running the Euro lens with out the Euro split. Yes, it bothered me. But I like the look better than all that orange. And, gasp, on my 73, I put on earlier chrome grilles and chrome/rubber bumper guards. It's what a 911 is supposed to look like to my eyes.

Then I get to the end and see that John made the separators! Just ordered. Thanks John.

Thanks Jay. I do think that it looks a lot better without the amber bleeding in and with the correct bulb lit up there.

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Originally Posted by preS

I had never noticed it but I learned something and share your point.

Thanks

Richard

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+1 >>>>>>>

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Originally Posted by LiveFromNY

Italians were colored the reverse of Euro lenses.

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All white front lenses for Japan, Norway and Denmark i recall.

I'm running very low on these and I don't know if I can get more or not. I'll post here if I do.

A customer sent me a picture after installing the Euro bulb holder:

Attachment 581561

Do I see part of the divider showing a triangle part of the divider showing through the lens? Is that how you would see a real Euro light? And the wire hooks on top of the red wire already there on the contact? You show it disconnected. Chris

Picture of the latest iteration:

Attachment 581562

The metal pieces are Porsche OEM parts.

[QUOTE=jaudette3;1112861]Yeah, you're right. Here are a couple pictures of a customer's car that is shown at the Petersen from time to time:

Attachment 564543

Attachment 564544

Signal Yellow or Orange?

Some pictures of an original:

Attachment 581563

Attachment 581564

To complicate things further, there was an later (edited, thanks Michael) generation that had a non-reflective plastic piece attached and apparently no bent over flange on top:

Attachment 581565

I think the flange shows more in the picture of the car because the reproduction lens has a straight line between the amber and clear portions rather than the correct curved line seen on the lens in the picture above.

[QUOTE=Simonjjb;1135113]

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

Yeah, you're right. Here are a couple pictures of a customer's car that is shown at the Petersen from time to time:

Attachment 564543

Attachment 564544

Signal Yellow or Orange?

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Bahama Yellow.

the original light box shows the flair going toward the center of the box. the example you show of the silver car shows the flair going toward the end of the box by the screw hold down for the box. Did somebody put these in backwards?

If they're backwards, and it looks like it, that means yours truly built them that way. Which is really stupid but by no means impossible.

Update: Relieved to report that they were not configured incorrectly. See photos below.

Thanks,
John

Can they just be switched or will the bulb be on the wrong side

Also maybe I can just bend the flair the other way or if worse comes to worse cut the flair off with tin sips .

And the picture of Dave Awesome's divider shows no flair

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Originally Posted by raspy2point2

And the picture of Dave Awesome's divider shows no flair

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Thats a SWB bucket and I wouldn't use it as a comparison to the LWB buckets. The flair should always sweep from front to back of the light bucket. The little plastic reflector is not an Earlier version, it was a Later version.

The owner who sent me the picture that I posted here just sent me some with the lenses removed. Thankfully the U.S./Euro converters are configured properly. It appears that my initial conclusion regarding the dividing line of the lens was correct. Big relief to me, I lost sleep over this last night.

Attachment 581619

Attachment 581620

Thanks,
John

Nothing like OG original parts!

There’s supposed to be a grey seal on the swept part of the partition. I always assumed it was for a soft contact point for the lens but, might have been for glare/reflection reduction as well.

Most likely like these except a lighter gray:

Attachment 581623

I've been looking for this and all I can find is black.

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

Most likely like these except a lighter gray:

Attachment 581623

I've been looking for this and all I can find is black.

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This is pretty close I think: https://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Channe...dp/B0B8MGHPXT/
I used the same stuff in black and it was perfectly sized for this application.

$10 for 10 feet. Hard to pass up trying anyway.

I am so dang happy with the results. Wow. THANK YOU John.